Psychological Safety: The Missing Piece of a High-Performing Team

Psychological Safety: The Missing Piece of a High-Performing Team

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Dennis Gill: Alright. So thank you. Thank you. Everybody for tuning in. Welcome to CareSmartz360 On Air, a Home Care Podcast. I am Dennis Gill, a Senior Sales Consultant at Caresmartz.

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Dennis Gill: Today, we are thrilled to announce a truly inspiring guest, Molly J. Mackey, a trailblazer in the world of leadership and learning.

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Dennis Gill: With over 19 years of business and speaking experience, Molly has become a renowned speaker, author, and a trainer who believes that intentionally intersecting leadership and learning, paves the way to better leaders-and ultimately better lives.

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Dennis Gill: As the Founder and Chief Learning Officer of the LEAdeRNship Institute, Molly has empowered countless individuals through her dynamic training sessions and transformative books, including her acclaimed “52 Powerful Reflection Questions” series.

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Dennis Gill: So from teaching collegiate business classes since 2009 to partnering with community colleges and organizations nationwide, she brings a wealth of knowledge and a dash of charm to every discussion.

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Dennis Gill: So, residing in Jesup, IA with her partner and 4 amazing children, Molly knows that true leadership starts at home.

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Dennis Gill: Today, She explores “Psychological Safety: The Missing Piece of a High-Performing Team”.

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Dennis Gill: So, welcome to the podcast, Molly.

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Molly J. Mackey: Wonderful. Thank you for that great introduction.

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Dennis Gill: No, no, we are really glad. We’re really glad you took out the time for our lovely audience today, and it would be a great and informative session for our audiences who are listening from wherever they are.

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Dennis Gill: Okay. So let’s straight away. Jump on to our 1st question for you. So are you.

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Dennis Gill: How do you define psychological safety and its impact on creating high performing teams?

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Molly J. Mackey: Yeah. So the definition of psychological safety is, people are able to come into the workplace. They’re able to show their true selves. They’re able to push back against the status quo. They’re able to make mistakes, and they’re used as learning opportunities.

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Molly J. Mackey: The original research from this actually came from Amy Edmondson back in the 19 nineties, when she wanted to study high performing teams, she didn’t actually

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Molly J. Mackey: start out to study psychological safety. But when she joined a large research group

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Molly J. Mackey: that was actually studying medication errors in hospitals. She had a theory that high performing teams made less mistakes than low performing teams.

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Dennis Gill: Okay.

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Molly J. Mackey: But that’s not what her data found. And so she thought, maybe something was wrong, and she redid her research. And again she found that the high performing teams were reporting just as many, if not more, mistakes than the low performing teams. Dennis, what do you think would cause that.

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Dennis Gill: I am pretty not sure about it, because that can be the data if they’re talking about the data about that thing. So that can be a different issue, completely different issue on that. So what was the outcome for that? Then.

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Molly J. Mackey: Yeah. So what they found was in those high performing teams when there was a lot of trust.

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Molly J. Mackey: They felt safe reporting their mistakes, because in those high performing teams you could make a mistake, and they were used as learning opportunities versus reasons to punish folks where what we see in the low performing teams and low psychological safety there’s low trust, and they would hide their mistakes. They were in a very punitive culture.

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Molly J. Mackey: So in psychologically safe teams, you can make mistakes. We use them as learning opportunities. We use them to push the performance of the team, you know better and and faster.

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Dennis Gill: Definitely, definitely. I never thought of it that way. Definitely. We can definitely nurture that in our team, too, and see what result comes out of that.

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Molly J. Mackey: Absolutely.

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Dennis Gill: Yeah. And so what specific leadership behaviors have you found most effective in nurturing psychological safety within diverse teams? If you say.

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Molly J. Mackey: Yeah, absolutely. So I like to break it down into 4 different parts. And these are very specific actions that leaders can take within their teams, and the 1st one is ask and pause.

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Molly J. Mackey: A lot of times, especially new leaders, will come in and they’ll be excited. They want to solve a problem. That’s probably how they got to their leadership position, but they’ll throw out an idea before any of their team speaks, and then the team just goes well, you’ve already made up your mind. Why would we even try.

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Dennis Gill: Get that? Yeah.

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Molly J. Mackey: I mean, how many times have leaders said, Hey, here’s what I think. What do you guys think? And everybody goes? Well, that’s what you’re gonna do.

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Dennis Gill: Yeah, yeah.

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Molly J. Mackey: Yes. Yeah.

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Dennis Gill: That’s right.

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Molly J. Mackey: And

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Molly J. Mackey: Amy Edmonds has a really good quote, you know great leaders speak last. So, being able to go to your team, ask the right questions. If you’re in a high level leadership position, you set the outcomes. Maybe it’s we need to grow by 5% next year. Maybe we need to decrease medication errors. But the questions you would ask to your team is, Hey, we’ve got these outcomes. What ideas do you guys have to get us there

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Molly J. Mackey: and being able to get feedback from your team, have everybody put that input in and then take into consideration their ideas.

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Dennis Gill: Okay.

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Molly J. Mackey: So that’s the 1st one is, ask and pause. The second one is reward, risk. So reward folks that try something different.

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Molly J. Mackey: even if it’s maybe something that you don’t implement, and I’ll I’ll give an example of this. Years ago I was a training coordinator. I worked under the director of quality, and we wanted to redo our annual training. That was super boring the type that you’d rather stick a fork in your eye than go to those ones.

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Dennis Gill: Got it. Got it.

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Molly J. Mackey: They’re to torture. And I found a really good idea out of a magazine from talent, development. And so I went to her, and I said, Hey, could we implement this at our organization?

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Molly J. Mackey: She went. Did her research turns out we couldn’t now if she just would have left it at that I probably wouldn’t have tried to redo the training. I just would have said, Okay, we’ll just keep it as is. But she said, Look.

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Molly J. Mackey: yeah, just because

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Molly J. Mackey: I haven’t taken this suggestion doesn’t mean I want you to stop coming to me with ideas. Take risks, try different things. Let’s keep going until we can find something that fixes this.

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Molly J. Mackey: And so we were able to finally redo the training. It was a better experience for the trainers, better experience for the participants. So really encouraging your folks to try different things. I think, especially, you know, there’s a lot of new technology. There’s new legislations. We don’t know what’s going to happen with funding for a lot of things.

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Dennis Gill: Yeah.

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Molly J. Mackey: So we need ideas. The things that have always worked within healthcare services may not work going forward. So reward those people that you know, speak up against the status quo and try different things.

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Molly J. Mackey: So ask and pause, reward, risk. The next one is role model.

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Molly J. Mackey: So, being a leader, being able to admit the times that you failed.

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Molly J. Mackey: And you know, showing your teams, hey? This is what I learned from it a lot of times. Leaders say, okay, I have to be confident. I have to have all the answers. But what the research shows us is people want leaders that are confident and humble, so humble enough to say, I don’t know. What do you guys think about this? And they also have to be vulnerable and be able to receive feedback.

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Molly J. Mackey: and I’m not sure. Do we have a time for a quick story I can tell you.

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Molly J. Mackey: Hold on.

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Dennis Gill: Please. I have time.

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Molly J. Mackey: Please.

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Molly J. Mackey: So the best. And I share this story a lot. One of my leaders that I reported 2 years ago was a CEO of a large healthcare and human service organization. Wonderful lady! She’s been one of my, you know, folks that I’ve looked up to for years, and we happen to be speaking at the same conference. This was a couple of years after Covid.

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Molly J. Mackey: and she said, Look, I’ve been a speaker for 20 years, but for the past 2 years I haven’t done any speaking, and before her session she sat me down and she said, Look, I would really appreciate if you could give me some feedback about my session. What went well, what could I improve?

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Molly J. Mackey: Not as someone that reports to me, but but as a peer, as a fellow speaker, she said. I won’t ask for it today, but you know, just sometime I’d like to have a chat, and so she starts her talk and she can work a stage, and she can do inflection. I mean she she can tell a story. But I did notice, and it just happened to be

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Molly J. Mackey: because I’d watched myself on a video a couple of weeks before. Have you seen those speakers that say right after things

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Molly J. Mackey: where instead of and they say right? Right?

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Molly J. Mackey: Right? It’s kind of a filler word.

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Molly J. Mackey: So I started just making tally marks, not as like a I gotcha or anything. But she’s asked me to give her objective feedback.

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Dennis Gill: Okay.

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Molly J. Mackey: So she she gets done with her story, or she just done with her session. And all of a sudden she’s like, Hey, do you wanna have coffee?

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Molly J. Mackey: I said, Okay, and so we start with a small talk. And then all of a sudden, she’s like, Hey, how did I do?

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Molly J. Mackey: And in the back of my mind I’m like, I thought you weren’t. Gonna ask me that today, you know, I was like, Oh, geez! Well, it’s it’s hard. It’s hard to give feedback to.

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Dennis Gill: That’s a good feedback. Yeah, get that.

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Molly J. Mackey: And so I start off with all the fluffy stuff. Hey? That was a good story about your son. Good job working the stage, maybe would have tweaked a couple of slides. And then

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Molly J. Mackey: I said, and I said, I did notice that you used the word right

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Molly J. Mackey: a lot, and then she looks on my paper because she can, and she saw the tally marks, and she’s like I said, right 50 times in 60 min. It’s like, Yes.

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Molly J. Mackey: And she just paused, and she looked at me.

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Molly J. Mackey: and luckily she said 2 words, and they weren’t fired, cause that would have been a wholly different conversation.

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Dennis Gill: Yeah.

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Molly J. Mackey: She said. Thank you, she said, Molly, because I’m the I’m in the position I’m in because I’m the CEO people won’t hold that mirror up to me. They won’t give me the feedback that I need to get better.

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Molly J. Mackey: So thank you. I appreciate it.

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Molly J. Mackey: Now think about that. If she can take honest feedback like that about something that’s so personal to her as public speaking. I knew at any time I could go to her with thoughts, ideas, things I agreed with things I disagreed with. She she made that space. I think that’s a really good example of a leader being vulnerable, being a good role model.

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Molly J. Mackey: A lot of times

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Molly J. Mackey: leaders will come to me and they say, Well, my! My door is always open. People can always come. Talk to me.

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Molly J. Mackey: But there’s a concept called interpersonal fear interpersonal risk, because we evolved in tribes. We care about what people think about us, so it can be really hard for employees to even get to that open door and say, I’m struggling. I’m scared. I don’t know what to do.

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Molly J. Mackey: But if you have a role model that shows that they’re vulnerable, that they’re open, that they make mistakes, too. It makes that journey a lot easier.

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Dennis Gill: Definitely it does. We have the same policy with our CEO just to let you know open door. Anybody can walk in and give feedback. And we’ve seen many constructive feedbacks on that. And he takes it very positively and then gives out the results for that thing. So I’ve seen that personally, yeah.

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Molly J. Mackey: That’s wonderful. And it makes a big difference in the organization.

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Dennis Gill: Does it definitely does. It has a sense of involvement. Everybody’s involved in this, even if that’s not a major decision making. Even though it’s a very minute thing, but everybody feels that they are connected somehow.

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Dennis Gill: No doubt it does. No, no, it really helps in that part.

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Dennis Gill: And so how can organizations practically measure the impact of psychological safety on team performance. Then.

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Molly J. Mackey: Think this is one of the harder parts is kind of like training. How do we measure it? How do we measure the impact of it. There are some different

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Molly J. Mackey: surveys or assessments that you can do within teams.

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Molly J. Mackey: There’s there is one on Amy Edmondson’s website. I’ve seen a couple other ones out there.

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Molly J. Mackey: and they just ask, you know, do you feel safe speaking up? What happens when you make a mistake? And then it gives you a rating. And so one of the things that you can do as a leader is give that survey out anonymously within your team and see what the results are people? Do they feel safe speaking up? Do they not feel safe speaking up? What happens when they

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Molly J. Mackey: have an idea? What happens when they make a mistake.

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Molly J. Mackey: so you can measure it like that. And then you can also use

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Molly J. Mackey: the other measurements. As far as you know.

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Molly J. Mackey: team performance. Are you looking at growth. Are you looking at

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Molly J. Mackey: medication mishaps? What are you measuring and see? Do the teams that have high psychological safety? How are they performing versus the teams that have low psychological safety.

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Molly J. Mackey: Google actually did this within their organization. And I need to look a little bit more into it, because I’m not sure what they use to quantify psychological safety. But they from 2,012 to 2016, they had what’s called their Aristotle project, where they really wanted to see what was the key to team performance, and they measured age, education, experience.

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Molly J. Mackey: even how often they had lunch together.

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Molly J. Mackey: And what they found is, yeah, I mean, you name it like they put it on a spreadsheet.

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Molly J. Mackey: and they couldn’t find anything that really tied all of the high performance teams together until they found Amy Edmondson’s original research. And that’s when they said, That’s it.

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Molly J. Mackey: All of our high performing teams take risks, feel safe, making mistakes can come in and be themselves. And what’s really interesting about that is, it’s really at the team level that we have to measure it versus an overall organizational or cultural level, because there can be a huge disparity between psychological safety within teams and within organizations.

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Dennis Gill: Okay, okay, okay, but there can be no defined measure. I think so where it can be completely, we haven’t defined the result for every team member, right?

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Dennis Gill: And I think.

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Molly J. Mackey: So one of the things that I look at when I work with teams is Amy Edmondson also defines like 4 different zones. Team members can be in. So if you have low psychological safety and low performance and accountability, you’re in the apathy zone where people just don’t care like they show up, but they don’t really do anything.

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Molly J. Mackey: You can have high psychological safety, but low motivation and accountability. And you’re in the comfort Zone where, you know, people are provided with a lot of support, but we’re not holding them accountable to performance standards like we should.

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Dennis Gill: You know, if they show up later, their documentation’s late, or whatever.

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Molly J. Mackey: Nobody gets held accountable.

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Molly J. Mackey: If you only measure numbers, and there’s low psychological safety. You’re in the anxiety zone where it’s performance performance. I don’t want to hear your ideas, just get it done where we want folks is having a high degree of psychological safety and a high degree of motivation and accountability.

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Molly J. Mackey: So one of the exercises that I have some teams do is I have them go on mentimeter.

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Molly J. Mackey: So

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Molly J. Mackey: it’s the a tool where people can put in anonymous responses and say, How do you feel? How do you feel on our team? Do you feel like you’re in the apathy zone? Do you feel like you’re in the comfort zone.

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Molly J. Mackey: Are you in the anxiety? Or are you in the learning zone?

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Molly J. Mackey: And what’s really interesting is

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Molly J. Mackey: leaders will think their teams in one zone and they get the results back. And sometimes they’re surprised that a lot of their teams in the anxiety zone

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Molly J. Mackey: or they’re in the the comfort

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Molly J. Mackey: zone. So that can be one way to just take a quick measure of where where are folks at when it comes to psychological safety and performance?

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Dennis Gill: And what common misconceptions about psychological safety do you frequently encounter? And how have you addressed them personally?

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Molly J. Mackey: Absolutely. I think one of the common misconceptions is that psychological safety is just about being nice is just about, you know, accommodating people. Psychological safety is very much about considerate candor.

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Molly J. Mackey: So we want to be very direct with people. You can be direct and be a jerk about it. But considerate candor is, hey? I’m going to be very direct with you, not because I’m coming down on you, but because I care about you because I want you to do better

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Molly J. Mackey: when I gave the my, you know the CEO, that feedback on her speaking. I did that because I want her to do better, and 6 months later she saw me speak, and she gave some very similar feedback on some some of the things that I was doing. You know, we go back and forth. We give that candor, even though it can be hard to hear. Sometimes

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Molly J. Mackey: it is because you, you care about folks.

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Molly J. Mackey: Hey. There was A. Podcast I was listening to the other day, I forget who the the CEO was on it. It was on diary of a CEO podcast and

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Molly J. Mackey: the Guy said. You know, we’re kind, not nice

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Molly J. Mackey: and kind means, hey? I’m gonna tell you the the truth, and even though sometimes it’s hard to hear

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Molly J. Mackey: we don’t sugarcoat stuff. We we want to make sure that

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Molly J. Mackey: we give people the the feedback. They need to get better. But we also have to tell them why, we’re giving them that feedback, hey? I’m not just coming down on you, or I’m just not taking your idea. If I’m not taking your idea, here’s why, maybe it’s not practical, etc. If I’m giving you this feedback, it’s because I care about you, and I want you to do better versus. I’m just picking on you.

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Dennis Gill: Yes, I’m picking on you.

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Dennis Gill: That definitely does help them so that they’re aware why the feedback is being provided to them.

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Molly J. Mackey: Absolutely. There is a really interesting study, and Jeffrey Cohen talks about it in his book belonging, and they broke students into 2 groups, and one of the groups of students they gave, you know, very

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Molly J. Mackey: succinct, harsh feedback on their paper, and that’s it.

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Molly J. Mackey: And the other group they gave the same feedback. But then they also said, Why.

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Molly J. Mackey: I’m giving you this feedback because I believe in you. I know you can do better. I care about your performance, and I care about your future.

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Molly J. Mackey: And the group that got that extra explanation with the feedback went on to improve their their scores way more than the students that just got that harsh feedback. So really telling folks why we do that makes a big difference.

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Dennis Gill: It definitely does. And Molly, finally, looking ahead to 2025, what are your predictions for the future of homecare? And how might innovative leadership and psychological safety reshape this sector.

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Molly J. Mackey: It’s gonna be an interesting year. It’s already started off to be an interesting year when we look at all of the different changes. So it’ll be interesting to see

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Molly J. Mackey: the evolution of the interaction of artificial intelligence when it comes to the home care sector.

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Molly J. Mackey: It’s going to be interesting to see

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Molly J. Mackey: legislative things. Or is there going to be more deregulation? Are there going to be more regulations?

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Molly J. Mackey: I know some of the long term care facilities are some States are dealing with, you know, staffing requirements. It’ll be interesting to see how that shakes out. I think

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Molly J. Mackey: we call it Vuga. So volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. I think that’s pretty much gonna define this year, maybe the next couple years.

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Molly J. Mackey: And with that being the environment, having those people that can try different things can make different mistakes, can, you know, come up with ideas that we’ve never done before are going to be more important than ever.

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Molly J. Mackey: So leaders really taking a conscious effort to.

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Molly J. Mackey: you know, ask folks what their ideas are. Role model, hey? If you make a mistake. It’s okay and encouraging people to try different things. Those are going to be the organizations that are successful in this environment.

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Dennis Gill: Surely, surely so, to work with the team, asking questions, making them feel comfortable, and they are much more comfortable in speaking out. So that’s what we can say.

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Molly J. Mackey: Absolutely.

00:20:47.430 –> 00:21:08.009
Dennis Gill: Okay, okay, so thank you. Thank you, Molly, for sharing your expertise today. And it was lovely talking to you. It was very informative. Must be very informative for our audience. For me it definitely was. And to our lovely audience, thank you for tuning in. Until next time, I’m Dennis Gill, signing off. Thank you, Molly.

00:21:08.750 –> 00:21:09.630
Molly J. Mackey: Thank you.